disobedience in this country. >> host: all right, john, we got your point. thank you. mr. barlett, response for that caller. >> guest: well, there's a lot there. and you could, you could do a whole book on the federal reserve. actually, bill greider a few years ago did a really fairly decent job on the federal reserve. one thing that i've learned over the years is don't talk about something you haven't spent any time studying. and so i just don't know. is that a fruitful area to look at? absolutely. and especially when you look now, because now it's being driven home to me that you can have massive debt without high interest rates, which is something i didn't think would ever occur. i'm talking about the federal government. because if you went back, you know, back into the greenspan era, the government interest rate, the government was paying 16, 17%. and you kept, you keep looking at the size of this growth, and you say, wow, this is impressive, 2, 3%? i don't know. i don't know what the -- i don't know how that's explained. it's beyond me. >> host: mary lo